| Posted by crearc, 07-28-2011, 04:51 PM | | I've been looking around WHT and learning about different things, but I just have a few questions.
A little background, I am a web designer and currently have about 10 clients that need hosting that I'm building their sites. These clients probably won't need a cPanel. So, is reseller right for me? Maybe go for afforable VPS? I don't really need the cPanel for them because I will mostly manage them. What I'm saying is, could I just get a solid shared account and have all the sites in there? Don't know how domain names would work though.
In possibly the next year, I might have between 80 and 100 clients. Most will have fairly low traffic.
I've discovered two hosting companies, Innohosting and MDDHosting that I like and that WHT likes. So here's a breakdown of questions.
On InnoHosting, I like them but realize they are UK based and was wondering if their US servers are as good as the UK ones. Any insight on that? Is their disk space and bandwidth enough in the "business" plan to host 100 accounts comparatively to MDD?
On MDDHosting, they have solid disk space and bandwidth, but only offer 25 cPanel accounts. I will need more in the future. And if I wanted to expand in their hosting it gets expensive quick. Inno allows for 100 accounts at around the same price.
Or am I looking at the right companies at all for me? I'm looking to spend between $20-25/month on hosting. I also want to be able to grow, which both of these companies don't seem to offer higher end plans I might need in the future. Let me know what you think and thanks for any insight you have!
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| Posted by hostliger, 07-28-2011, 04:56 PM | | Hello,
you should work with cpanel reseller account then you can upgrade to VPS or server
we worked with mddhosting they are very good
but now we own our business
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| Posted by Forward Web, 07-28-2011, 07:43 PM | | In all honesty, if you were to get up to around that many cpanel accounts, you would probably need to upgrade to a VPS or at least break up those cpanel accounts into separate reseller accounts.
Even if your accounts are low usage, cpanel accounts are pretty resource intensive (especially during the back-up process). Not saying you might not be able to sneak in that many cpanel accounts with a web host that does not closely monitor their cpanel account limits (or does not have any limits in place), but you would definitely be pushing it.
In all honesty, I would just focus on what you need right now and now what you think you might need. It looks to me like Innohosting is just using the higher cpanel account limit to lure in clients who think they might actually need that many cpanel accounts, while gambling that the majority of there customers will not come close to hitting that number (hence the lower diskspace/quota). In other words, they are overselling cpanel accounts (im sure they will come on here and say otherwise), but that does not necessarily mean they are providing a bad service either. Its just important that you (the consumer) know that due to other restrictions/limits such as diskspace/bandwidth, cpu, ram, you might not ever come close to using up that 100 cpanel account limit. Just some food for thought
Last edited by Forward Web; 07-28-2011 at 07:52 PM.
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| Posted by rv_irl, 07-28-2011, 08:40 PM | | Hi Crearc!
Many thanks for considering InnoHosting!
To answer your question, yes - our US servers are fantastic. Optimised with our own special config of hardware, built in-house by ourselves and hosted at our own private cabinets. We're a UK registered company, but a huge amount of our operations are in the US, including our 24x7 support by phone/live chat/ticket.
In regards to hosting 100 accounts, that really won't be an issue. We had one customer host 800 accounts with us on a single reseller account and they never experienced an issue. The hardware we use isn't cheap, but it's the quality of service we focus on, so our costs reflect that.
Whoever you choose, I wish you the best of luck with your business and your search for a new hosting company
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| Posted by rv_irl, 07-28-2011, 08:50 PM | | I'm not sure what you're basing your assumptions, but I can say with great confidence, your statements are inaccurate. Of course I'm going to say otherwise when someone decides, without any knowledge of pretty much how we do things, decides to base things on pure guesswork.
The limits we impose are real limits, based on real experience - based on 8 years of being in business. We have customers that hit those limits, we have customers which host 500 accounts, 800 accounts. We have some that use a lot less. The reason? We deliver on what we promise, always have been and always continue to do so. We are able to comfortably support what we promise and the way we conduct business ensures that.
Telling someone that at 100 accounts they'll need to split them up is something I would disagree with. This is more than just numbers - it depends on what resources those accounts use, how they use it etc. You may have someone with 5 accounts causing an issue while someone else with 90 accounts causing non. There are many factors to consider than just the numbers at face value. Any experienced web host would know that.
crearc is 100% correct in his decision making. I wouldn't consider telling someone not to consider their future needs as good advice. S/he should consider their future needs, they should plan ahead and ensure they have a solid foundation they can base their business on, from which they can grow from.
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| Posted by ModelWebHost, 07-28-2011, 09:06 PM | | That's amazing for me. How much accounts do you have per server or how much accounts can your server handle??
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| Posted by rv_irl, 07-28-2011, 09:13 PM | | It really depends on the accounts, huge account usages are few and far between, but they can happen. A typical server will have anything between 400-500 accounts, sometimes more, sometimes a lot less. It is all down to what those accounts are.
We don't base things on just a few numbers, we look at our detailed statistical data, which we gather ourselves using our own in-house developed software and make decisions on factual elements rather than just some numbers which in no context can mean almost anything.
Best option is to contact us, let us know a bit more about your accounts and we'll inform you of the suitable options. If a reseller is suitable, we'll tell you, if it's not, we'll be straight with you and let you know any issues that we're going to anticipate along with giving our recommendations.
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| Posted by Forward Web, 07-28-2011, 09:20 PM | | Im basing my statements on experience, been in the web hosting business well over 10 years
Not saying you don't, but if you are seriously allowing resellers to host 800 cpanel accounts on a single reseller, then I would seriously question the stability of your services. By simply coming on here and stating that you have "powerful" hardware, does not cut it with me (maybe if I was an unsuspecting end user, but thats not the case, I've been doing this for awhile). Not really trying to pick a fight with you, but saying something like what you said is really no different than saying I get my hard drives at a discount so I can provide "unlimited" diskspace. Again, not saying your services are unstable, just pointing out the obvious.
This I agree with and I did not say otherwise, however this still does not change the fact that cpanel accounts (by themselves) are very resource intensive, especially during the back-up process. So in my opinion its very important for a reseller, to look at things from a realistic point of view, while also looking towards the future. Because someday, that reseller might have to move to a dedicated solution, which might be a little more difficult to do if they have 800 cpanel accounts on a shared server (not to mention the price increase involved in moving from a regular reseller account, to a High End VPS or Low end Dedicated Box (which is probably what would be required to properly maintain that many cpanel account).
In a sense you are correct with what you are saying (because that is partly the reason why I said what I said), however more or less what I was referring to, was they should focus on what they realistically need now, so they can get a better idea of what they might realistically need in the future.
Its no different than someone saying, I might need 100GB of diskspace 2 years from now, so I am going to go with an unlimited diskspace provider so I do not have to worry about that.
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| Posted by rv_irl, 07-28-2011, 09:53 PM | | Your hard drive analogy isn't an accurate representation of what I've said nor does it relate to my point. We don't target inexperienced users, quite the contrary, the customers that come to us are those that have been burnt by incompetent web hosts and are looking for a stable platform. We know our customers research us before they go with us, and we know they'll be looking at our reviews before going with us. Our reviews, spanning our entire history back up the fact, we provide a rock solid, stable platform. Like I said, I'm not talking about x years hosting experience, I'm talking about the number of years we have been in business with reviews spanning back to show a consistently high level of service being provided all these years. If you want to talk about experience, that's a whole different topic.
800 cPanel accounts means nothing. Without being put into context, it really has no significance. That customer didn't have a single issue with us. We do what it takes to deliver on our promises. My point, which I feel has been distorted here, isn't regarding the number of accounts, it's the fact that our limits are realistic, a true representation.
Hardware is everything, you have the hardware to support those accounts, then there is no issue. Be it the hardware to support 5, 500 or 5000 accounts.
To re-iterate what I have said before, it depends - it all has to be to put into context. How are those backups being performed? Where are they being backed up to? Etc. An experienced web host has to consider so many more factors than just general numbers.
I agree with that too. Being realistic is very important. Understanding your true prices & needs and ensuring your budget is spent on a quality service to secure you are able to offer hosting services reliably from is paramount. However, taking into account, realistic future needs also plays an important part.
One can argue that it's actually "I'm going to need 100GB diskspace in 2 years time, so I'm going to pay the true cost of 100GB disk space now and factor it into my costing" - but just not in the extremity you have put it.
You've brought some interesting topics to the table, and I'm sure the OP is happy they are receiving a lot more information than they had anticipated. But to summarise my points, everything needs to be put into context and basing decisions on just general numbers that in different contexts mean different things is a pretty dangerous way to approach the managing of your servers.
Last edited by rv_irl; 07-28-2011 at 09:56 PM.
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| Posted by Forward Web, 07-28-2011, 10:28 PM | | Well that is true to a particular extent, however you initially made that statement as if 800 cpanel accounts on a single shared reseller hosting account was the norm for you guys. Meaning, everyone can sign-up for your services, set-up as many cpanel accounts as they want, and there wont be any issues. Which you and I know is not the case. My original point was that you guys offer "unlimited" cpanel accounts as a gamble, meaning you are not expecting very many people to set-up a large amount of cpanel accounts (which I assume is the case), therefore the cpanel account limit should really not be a concern to the OP, because in reality, they are probably never going to get close to 100 cpanel accounts.
Now we are just going a bit in circles, again, im not trying to belittle or degrade your company, was just trying to provide some useful information to the user, because it seemed like the cpanel account limit was a deal breaker for them. I would hate to see them sign-up with a web host under the assumption they were getting something that they really might not ever get (ex: 100 cpanel accounts). I just think there are a lot of misconceptions out in the web hosting industry, especially regarding limits and I try to clear those up when ever I can (it wasnt meant as an attack on your company).
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| Posted by IH-Chris, 07-28-2011, 10:30 PM | | Inexperience and assumptions at it's best. Just because your trends doesn't match ours, your standard is not exactly ours. There is no right or wrong to this, you seem to think the industry standard is your way. That's fine, follow your plan and stick to it if it works for you. There is much to consider between everything and I have developed my own opinion. However, that is irrelevant. Run your own business and we will run ours. There is no more to be said about this.
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| Posted by rv_irl, 07-28-2011, 10:39 PM | | Hmm, I don't believe I did.. To quote myself:
Like I said, it depends. Within our ToS and FuP, then it's fine. The same way you offer "unmetered" MySQL databases for example, some may think they can set up any number of DB's, but they can't, and you still have some way of making sure it isn't excessive. Everything within reason and depending on the situation. You may have one of your clients cause an issue with 1 MySQL datbase, while another customer of yours using 100 MySQL databases may not cause an issue.
The OP may get close to their limit quickly, if they approach it right, I don't see why not. Only the OP will know and is in the best position to judge this. I don't personally believe anyone else is in a better position than the OP to decide what their growth will be like.
And that's fine, but you made some pretty inaccurate assumptions there which I don't think was right. And similarly, I'm going to respond and post the facts, along with informing the OP too.
People are going to have different needs. Some people will think about the present, some people are going to think about the future as well and plan ahead. Each to their own.
Last edited by rv_irl; 07-28-2011 at 10:44 PM.
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| Posted by Forward Web, 07-28-2011, 10:49 PM | | Well I really wasnt trying to throw my company into the mix, but since you mention it, we try to make it very clear about what limitations a user might encounter while using our services, hence why we use the word "unmetered" as opposed to "unlimited". Last I check, there isnt a server in the world that allows the hosting of unlimited cpanel accounts, yet this is what you guys claim on your website. Now im sure your TOS says otherwise, but the fact that one has to go looking for this information can be very misleading to a customer.
Care to clarify? Everything I have stated so far has been fact, not assumption. You can not host unlimited cpanel accounts with your service. I believe that was the whole premise of my original statement, which is true, not false
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| Posted by crearc, 07-28-2011, 11:06 PM | | Wow, thanks for all the information guys. It's what I needed. I can't really respond to everything you guys posted about, but I'll bring up a point that is important to me.
You've been discussing about the number of cPanel accounts that can be handled on any shared server. I understand what FGG is sayings that a high number accounts can be unstable when the origin host says you can have unlimited or a high number of accounts. And yes that can happen, but ultimately it comes down to the reseller being responsible about the resources that they are limited to. I like that responsibility.
Now what about having the limit of 25 cPanels or anything particularly small? You can also say that by the hosting company doing this, in essence they block some freedoms. You may be alloted 500GB of bandwidth but will all 25 accounts use that up? Probably not, and they know that because they'll be saving money. I would just like the choice to have as many accounts as I like just if I need it. What if I needed 26 accounts? Do I go and spend another $20/m just for one site?
I wouldn't have gone with Innohosting just because their cPanel limits if I had done no research. But I've researched a lot over the last 3 weeks and narrowed it down to these two companies because of the positive feedback they've received on this forum (which I consider the only legitimate host review site [WHT] on the web right now) and everything else about them. I will be happy with whomever I choose because of the research I've gone through and everything you have discussed on this post.
I'm going to be having bare-bone wordpress installations by the way.
I'm not trying to start a fuss, so play nice. :p
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| Posted by rv_irl, 07-28-2011, 11:10 PM | | We're really going round in circles here, my explanation of everything is above, you've done a lot of guesswork, you're not sitting where I'm sitting to know what we do and how we do it. If you're unable to do it, it doesn't mean it's not possible . So if you require any more explanations you can re-read my comments as I've repeated them so many times.
Unmetered to me, in a literal sense, means something not metered. And you guys offer unmetered MySQL databases, but won't there be a point where a client has created too many databases, and then you guys have to 'meter it'? To an uninformed customer I'd be inclined to say that is quite misleading since the upper limit is left to guesswork. All of your comments seem to contradict the very thing you offer if I'm being very honest here.
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| Posted by rv_irl, 07-28-2011, 11:20 PM | | No problem crearc! You've definitely received some candid feedback that you can feedback into your research
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| Posted by Forward Web, 07-29-2011, 02:30 AM | | Not really and by no stretch am I sitting here trying to say we cant claim to offer "unlimited" like you guys are doing. Like I said, I've been doing this awhile and FGG has been around for about 10+ years now, prior to that I worked with some pretty big name companies (bigger than yours) so this is not my first rodeo and I know very well what is and is not possible.
To further elaborate (just for the record), we (FGG) actually used to use the "unlimited" terminology when it came to our reseller accounts (in regards to cpanel account limits) but decided to change it for moral reasons. We actually still have a couple reseller accounts who are hosting 200+ cpanel accounts each, so like you, we stayed true to our word.
Now again, I never said you guys provided an unstable service, I was just simply pointing out that you guys were technically overselling (claiming to offer something you actually cant provide). Because lets be real, unless you have some type of server technology nobody else in the world has, its not possible for you to host unlimited cpanel accounts under one reseller account.
Not really, because lets be real here, there is a BIG difference between using the words "unmetered" and the words "unlimited". Unlimited gives the impression that you guys are litteraly offering "unlimited" services, where "unmetered" will at least raise the question, so what does unmetered actually mean? To further answer that question, next to each of our web hosting packages we have the following verbage...
"We do not put a hard limit on the amount of subdomains, databases, email accounts, forwarders..ect, you can create. What is important is that you do not surpass the total diskspace/bandwidth allotted to your account, or use more than 25% of the systems resources for a duration longer than 120 seconds. Our number one priority is system integrity, so as long as the amount of subdomains/email accounts you have created,, does not degrade the overall performance of the server, you will be ok (see tos for full details)."
Do you? of course not.. because as I was pointing out earlier, you are using the words "unlimited" as a marketing gimmick, just like you came on here claiming that you have customers hosting 800cpanel accounts on your servers without any problems.
Bottom line, your overselling (which is the point I was trying to get acorss to the OP). Now that does not mean you provide a poor service, just means the OP should go in knowing they have limits and that your advertised limits might not be what they appear to be. Agree?
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| Posted by Viper Sonic Group, 07-29-2011, 02:42 AM | | If your clients wants reliability go for VPS, Some clients wants security go for VPS, it all depends on what kind of clients you have.
If you have big corporation clients go for dedicated hosting or bigger than that. Also depending on what your client pays you. Give them an option .
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| Posted by Forward Web, 07-29-2011, 02:53 AM | | That is very true, I was going to say that both of the companies you were comparing, appear to be offsetting themselves a bit. If Innohost had been offering more exaggerated disks-pace limits, I would be a little more concerned, but they are not. The same goes for MDD (only with them its in relation to the cpanel limits).
Well thats the thing, regardless of what anyone here might try to tell you, there is no such thing as getting as many accounts as you would like. There are limits to everything and its always best to keep that in mind. Now with that being said, what if you do need 26? I would like to think that a web hosting provider would take a look at your overall usage and would work with you on that (if possible).
No worries, Im not trying to start a fuss either, but obviously because of what some providers claim to offer and some of the facts I bring to light, some web hosts will take a offense or will try to defend their positions (because nobody wants to be called out).
With that being said, just between me and you, im not trying to get you to go with one web host or the other (from what I can tell), both companies provide a solid service. I was simply trying to point out to you that what a company claims to offer (regardless of what they say), is not always so. Doesn't make them a bad provider, just makes you an educated consumer. HG (Hostgator) is a perfect example, plenty of people happy with their services, but it still doesnt mean that you can actually sign-up with them and expect to get unlimited diskspace (just a marketing gimmick, nothing more, nothing else).
Anyway, I think I have said enough and I wish you the best of luck in your search for a new web host.
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| Posted by Jeff Bee, 07-29-2011, 02:56 AM | | I'm not so sure that you can say Inno is overselling. You are given hard and fast limits for your space and bandwidth, but the choice on how you divvy it up is ultimately left up to you. I appreciate the fact that Inno and other similar providers allow me, the user, to decide to divide my resources by one, two, fifty or five hundred. And that's the way it should be, as long as the host has the hardware to support it.
@ FGG - I totally understand your position. However, I think the reseller with 800 accounts is far and few between
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| Posted by Forward Web, 07-29-2011, 03:35 AM | | Well technically, overselling is offering something you cant actually support. And I assure you that Inno, along with any other web host who claims to offer anything "unlimited", can not support an unlimited amount of cpanel accounts. To further prove my point, Im sure they probably wouldn't appreciate me signing up for a few reseller acounts tomorrow and setting up 10k cpanel accounts on each of those accounts (even if it was within the alloted diskspace/bandwidth quotas).
Well that's the thing, depending on how much cpu/memory your accounts are using, that is really not that case, the higher the cpanel limit, the high the chances of you hiting those invisible limits (like inno host, do not advertise).
It most certainly is, otherwise companies like Innohost would not be in business.
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| Posted by rv_irl, 07-29-2011, 06:39 AM | | With due respect, given your experience I'm pretty surprised by some of the comments you're making. Unmetered and unlimited, to the uninformed customer there isn't that much difference and seems like a play on words to just mislead the customer.
Now I'm slightly confused here, you advised the OP that them reaching 100 accounts they should upgrade to a VPS and you guys are hosting 200 account reseller accounts.
But we're not. Like I said, just because you don't know how, it doesn't make it impossible.
That doesn't really explain anything, it seems you're just hiding behind some technical data, which again is in no context. How on earth is a customer supposed to know they have used 120 seconds? How will they know what 25% of system resources is? These are pretty vague comments which is pretty much a get out clause for FernGullyGraphics.
Yes we do.
You have come here, and for some reason (which I'm sure others will see quite obviously) have decided to spread some false statements and still continue to do so, brandishing them as 'facts', all while you yourself conduct business in the exact same manner, offering "unmetered" this, that and the other.
You seem to have a habit of putting down other hosts for your own benefit and for someone who claims to do this for 10 years and working for big companies etc. etc. I find it pretty unprofessional.
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| Posted by rv_irl, 07-29-2011, 06:42 AM | | Hi Jeff,
Well said! Unfortunately some who have different business practices fail to comprehend another hosts business practices, and believe if every host isn't doing it their way, then it's the wrong way, whereas there are much better approaches than what is being said.
I think your comment is pretty accurate. That's exactly what we do, we leave it upto the customer to decide how they split up and use those resources.
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| Posted by Forward Web, 07-29-2011, 07:09 AM | | Actually there is a BIG difference. Its the same reason why you probably choose to use the word "unlimited" instead of un-metered. Why you are trying to debate otherwise is beyond me.
I dont recall at any point where I recommended the OP go with a VPS, nor did I ever state that hosting that many cpanel accounts on a reseller was not technically possible (at least not from a providers point of view).
Rigghhht, you are not overselling, yet you claim to offer unlimited cpanel accounts? That IS the definition of overselling, unless you have some type of breakthrough technology that nobody else in the world has? This isnt poker where you can hide your cards, I know your hand, just like everyone else in the industry knows what you are talking about is not possible. What next, are you going to deploy the harddrive that comes with unlimited diskspace as well?
Hiding behind some technical data? At least we are honest and make an effort to explain the limits to users looking to sign-up for our services (unlike most people in this industry).
Again, if you are accusing me spreading false statements, care to clarify? Are you seriously going to sit here and tell me that me and some of my friends can set-up a few reseller accounts with you guys and set-up 10k, maybe 20k cpanel accounts each? After all, you do claim to offer "unlimited" cpanel accounts.
So far nothing in this thread has proven to be false. Just calling you out on your marketing tactics. But you seem to keep trying to defend your point like if what I am saying is not true. Definitely starting to lose some respect for you and your company, I did not make my original post to make this into a me vs you conversation, but apparently you turned it into that. All you had to do was be honest, a simple, yes we oversell, but we do a great job managing our servers would have spoke volumes and gained you some respect in my books.
You honestly brought it upon your-self, my initial statement was an unbiased statement regarding oversellers. Which by definition is "referring to the selling of a volatile good or service in excess of actual capacity". Last I checked, there is no server on this planet that allows unlimited anything, so by definition, you are an overseller.
Bottom line, if you are going to offer services in a misleading way (which unlimited is), then you better be ready to hear it from critics like myself (I believe its called karma).
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| Posted by rv_irl, 07-29-2011, 07:39 AM | | Not as a big difference as you may think. Why you're trying to deceive your customers with a few play on words is beyond me
You did on the previous page. No need to backtrack on your statements here. If you're going to say something, you should stick to your guns and keep with it.
You're comparing apples to oranges You're failing to grasp some pretty elementary concepts here. Everything mentioned here by me is fact. Unlike some people here that like to bash other hosts for their own personal agenda.
Heh, what you're doing is far from honest. All you've done is added a line to cover yourself, leaving the client high and dry - even short changed. Conveniently side stepped my question
No offense here, but I'm not here to gain your 'respect', quite frankly I do have better things to do.
You have been doing this from sometime on WHT with nobody answering you back. Now that someone is, you're getting pretty worked up. You're sitting there, with no knowledge of how we do things and decide to pass judgement. Pretty easy job.
You could have simply acknowledged we do things differently from you, and other businesses do things differently from us etc. But in order to gain business for yourself, you decide to bash another host. It's not your first time either.
Unbiased? Right.
Brought it on myself? Brought what exactly on myself? Why not be straight and to the point. You come here, criticise other businesses, write a few cliches, while you yourself do the exact same thing and word it differently to cover yourself. Then when someone calls you out and pokes holes in all your statements, you get pretty agitated, start going on about poker games & respect. Let's be adults here and debate the points raised. Distorting their comments and putting your own spin on it. People here are more knowledgeable than that and will see straight through it.
You're offering "unmetered" xyz and make no effort to clarify what the upper limit is. According to you, what you're doing is pretty shady. Seems a bit hypocritical to pass judgement on another competitor, while you conduct the same principals.
Bottom line, if you're going to come here, without understanding some pretty elementary concepts, without any knowledge of the aforementioned host, to gain benefit for yourself, then you better be prepared to support your comments and have someone challenge you on your statements.
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| Posted by Forward Web, 07-29-2011, 08:22 AM | | Not really passing judgement, just pointing out the obvious, why you continue to side step by trying to turn this into something that its not (my company vs your company) is beyond me.
Now whos passing judgement?
Well if you are going to sit here and complain about how im now
"bashing" your company by simply pointing out the obvious marketing tactics (which you are trying to pass off as being realistic), then you have nobody to blame but your-self.
I think I was pretty straight forward with my first post. I definitely made it pretty clear by my 2nd, 3rd, not sure why you are still confused? Your claiming to offer something that you are not actually able to provide (specifically referring to your claim of unlimited cpanel accounts). Not really sure how much more clear than that I can be? But I guess if you are going to continue to pretend to live in a world where hard drives never run out of space and cpu's never run out of power, then I guess this argument is pointless.
For the record, I criticize business models, not businesses. Its only when people like your-self decide to pop-up and defend the business model, that I start to criticize the business.
Last I checked, we are not claiming to offer unlimited anything. Sure you can say in essence we have the same policies as you do (which is somewhat correct), however the big difference is how we market our business. You use the word "unlimited" because you want your consumers to believe they are actually getting an unlimited amount of something. The reality... they are not. We use the word "unmetered" to let users know that although we do not have a hard limit on particular features, we do monitor the resources consumed and there are limits. How you fail to see the difference is beyond me.
Calls me out eh? Is this some type of reverse psychology you are trying to play here? I can assure you I am far from agitated. I am actually sitting in my reclined office chair, listening to some relaxing music getting a good laugh out of all this.
Not really, because we let our customers know we are monitoring every aspect of their usage. Sure, we can put hard limits on MYSQL, Add-on Domain names (and we actually gave it some serious consideration, might even still do it). But for now, we do not feel it is necessary, because we have not run into any situations where those services were abused to the point where an account had to be suspended for creating too many addon domain names or mysql.
The big difference here is that anyone signing up for our services does not have any misconceptions about the limits that exist with their accounts (we try to be as open and direct about this as possible). My problem with the business model you are using is that some consumers sign-up for your services under the assumption that they are getting something "unlimited" which they are not. That's really all I pointed out to the OP, why you decided to get all bent out of shape and then proceeded to morph this conversation into a debate about my supposed "lack of knowledge" is beyond me.
Again, you can try to belittle my statements and try to get personal all you want, but its not going to make my statements any less relevant, nor is it going to make me any less intelligent. Wether you feel I am making these statements for my own benefit is your opinion, which you are entitled too, but it still does not make them any less true.
On a closing note (because this is going to be the last post I make regarding this matter). I find it funny that people like your-self often times accuse me of making statements (regarding the industry in general) to benefit my own company, yet you are the ones bringing my company into the conversation. Just some food for thought..
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| Posted by eLief, 07-29-2011, 08:36 AM | | I'm not sure exactly how what they are offering is misleading, since they are providing exactly what they say they do. From an outsiders perspective, you're being a bit contradictive with your statements, considering your definition of 'unmetered' is just another "marketing tactic" for 'unlimited'.
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Host A offers "Unmetered" email accounts. From how you describe your unmetered offering, host A allows the customer to create an infinite amount of email accounts, as long as they don't go over the resource limits that Host A has set.
Host B offers "Unlimited" email accounts. Host B's customers can also create an infinite amount of email accounts, as long as they do not go over the resource limits set by Host B(presumably set in their TOS).
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Consumers are not as ignorant as you think, and usually know what exactly they're receiving before making the purchase. If not, it's probably not much of a concern to them anyway and they are making the purchase based on other factors that are more important to them.
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| Posted by Forward Web, 07-29-2011, 08:51 AM | | You cant create unlimited cpanel accounts with inno host or any other host for that matter (its not possible).
Nope not true at all, the word infinite is not used anywhere on our page. We simply state that we do not track the number of email accounts created, instead we track the overall usage of the account (its in plain writing right next to the order now buttons).
The true definition of unlimited is: without limits or bounds
The true definition of unmetered: not measured with a meter: not measured using a meter.
Two very different definitions, that are in no way similar to each other. The fact is, providers use the word "unlimited" when they really mean unmetered, but they choose to use the word "unlimited" as a marketing tactic to gain additional business.
Im going to have to disagree with this statement, there is a very small percentage of people who are truly educated in the subject of web hosting. Sure its easy to lose sight of that if you are here on WHT where there are tons of providers/it professionals..ect, however that really only accounts for a small percentage of the consumer. I mean even using WHT as an example, there are almost 2-3 people who come on here daily complaining about being duped by "unlimited" providers or who simply do not know about the clauses that exist in the TOS (and thats just WHT).
Anyway, just thought I would chime in one last time before unsubscribing from this thread.
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| Posted by rv_irl, 07-29-2011, 08:57 AM | | You do this all the time. People can just look at your post history. You jump in whenever you can, bash another host in the attempt to gain new business from yourself. In this case, you're seem pretty unhappy someone has finally challenged you.
You've been pretty vague about everything. Out of context, using cliches rather than being to the point and then backtracking and side stepping questions that you're finding difficult to answer.
That's a bit contradicting. Unmetered means in the literal sense, that it is unmetered. You're saying that you're unmetered but meter it anyway.
Anyone signing up for your services will have misconceptions. You have set vague limits on your services without informing the client on what those limits are. On one hand you claim its unmetered, on the other hand it's riddled with ambiguity and technicalities which misleads the average customer into thinking they're receiving something they're really not.
We do inform our customers, however, as mentioned before, your statements are based on guesswork without anything factual to back them up. Nothing but opinions.
Belittle? There is no reason to try and discredit my statements as "belittling" you just because it challenges you. Your statements have no factual basis because they are based on pure speculation. If you don't know how to do something, it doesn't mean someone else can't.
Last edited by rv_irl; 07-29-2011 at 09:00 AM.
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| Posted by rv_irl, 07-29-2011, 08:59 AM | | eLief, that's very well put. Consumers are not drones, they research and research, they ensure they are clued up on what they're buying. Trying to pull a fast one by playing around with some words is a pretty deceptive and dangerous practice which one day will come back and bite you.
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| Posted by eLief, 07-29-2011, 09:11 AM | | So, what you're saying is that you don't have a specific set limit of the amount of emails that can be created then? Lets take it one step further and remove both of the "marketing" terminologies, and break it down to exactly what both companies are offering:
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Host C offers email accounts. Host C allows the customer to create a limitless amount of email accounts, as long as they don't go over the resource limits that Host C has set.
Host D offers email accounts. Host D's customers can also create a limitless amount of email accounts, as long as they do not go over the resource limits set by Host D.
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Please apply your definition of unmetered to which one is unmetered, and unlimited to the one that is unlimited.
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| Posted by eLief, 07-29-2011, 09:38 AM | | Exactly. Not only that, but customers see right through it. If anything, the term "unmetered" is just going to confuse his potential customers more than anything(but shhh, lets not tell him that )
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| Posted by neelhaam, 07-29-2011, 11:32 AM | | For web hosting first you need to know proper system how to control your client. How can you protect them. Security is very important for hosting business.
You Can start as a reseller first then try to move others.
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| Posted by Forward Web, 07-30-2011, 06:37 AM | | I wasn't going to comment on this anymore but I could not resist after reading your post. Essentially what you are saying is true, in essence both companies are using the same policy (that is not what I am debating or have a problem with). What I do have a problem with is the word "unlimited" being used to described a service that is not actually unlimited. If the company in question or any other company claiming to offer "unlimited" openly advertised their services as you have mentioned above (clearly defining that there are in fact limits), then there would not be any problems. However we all know this is far from the truth.
The word unlimited is defined as: without limits or bounds
The word unmetered is defined as: not measured with a meter, not measured using a meter.
Now, with that being cleared up. I understand the point you are trying to make. However this whole "debate" if you can even call it that, was started by innohost, who was trying to argue that we were being just as deceptive as they are by using the word "unmetered" instead of unlimited. However the big difference here is that we clearly state to our customers that 1.) we do not count, keep track of the actual numbers of email accounts created, however we do keep track monitor the amount of diskspace/bandwidth/cpu/ram being consumed (which is not to be exceeded).
That is really the whole premise for this whole debate. You cant argue that we are being deceptive because we are not trying to imply that a user can sign-up for our services and create an infinite amount of email accounts (its clearly stated next to our web hosting package that there are limits to everything). If we had just used the word "unmetered" in place of the word "unlimited" I would 100% agree with your statement, but that is not the case here (not even close).
Using innohost as an example, they are doing the opposite, they are actually trying to convince users that they can sign-up for their services and create an "unlimited" amount of cpanel accounts, which we know is not possible. If they were not trying to be deceptive, why not put some type of * next to the word unlimited?
Thats really the point I was trying to make, why innohost decided to try and attack me (by trying to make this about me) is beyond me. I guess the truth hit a little to close to home?
Anyway, just thought I would clear that up
Last edited by Forward Web; 07-30-2011 at 06:46 AM.
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| Posted by rv_irl, 07-30-2011, 08:14 AM | | So basically, you're honest with your customers because you played around with a few words (switched from unlimited to unmetered) to advertise that you deliver the very same thing you claim is not possible to be delivered?
Same thing.
How is that different? FernGullyGraphics is doing the exact same thing but using technical jargon such as relative percentages to further confuse the customer.
I think you may have missed the point here. The fact is, you claim "unmetered" but you actually meter the usage.
Because we're not like you creating 101 conditions here and there that a client has to look out for. Adding asterisks all over the site, little get out clauses that you keep adding along with conditions that have no meaning to the customer but are solely there to ensure you don't need to offer what you advertise. We are to the point with our customers. We offer what we promise, and our reviews are evident of that.
You seem to have a problem with anyone challenging your statements. Let's not forget that this is a forum, we are allowed to discuss. Like I said, you don't need to discredit my statements with things like "attack" and "belittle". You decided to spread a few lies to gain yourself a little bit of business, and you had your statements challenged by actually quite a few people on this thread.
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| Posted by rv_irl, 07-30-2011, 08:15 AM | |
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| Posted by Forward Web, 07-30-2011, 09:13 AM | | Exactly, and although you might just try to write this off as "playing around with a few words" it really does make all of the difference. We base our business off doing our best to educate our users regarding the limits that exist within the shared web hosting industry. Hence, why we choose to be politically correct when it comes to defining what is actually included in a web hosting package.
Actually its not, that is why they are two separate words with two separate definitions.
Not really, and I assure you our clients are not confused when signing up with our services. Its one of the main reasons why we are becoming very popular, customers appreciate honesty and straight forwardness.
Our business model is based off educating/informing our users about shared web hosting, whereas the majority of the industry bases their business models off keeping their clients in the dark (which im assuming is the reason why you choose to use the words unlimited, without any clear explanation in regards to what that actually means, while still trying to insist that you guys somehow are able to offer unlimited cpanel accounts.. ridiculous).
Again, nice try at trying to twist this around, however its not going to work. As I have clearly stated, we make it very clear regarding what we meter and do not meter. If you are going to try and label us as being hypocritical or mischievous, you better come with something better than that.
So in other-words you just prefer to completely lie to your customers then? Because as you have already stated, your services do have limits, but now you are saying you dont? On your website you have "unlimited" but then going through your TOS it looks like you do have 101 conditions that a client has to look for in order to find out what those limits are.
"3.2 Excessive resource usage - cgi scripts or other executable code that consumes an undue amount of CPU time [defined dynamically by InnoHosting at will] will be reprioritized if possible, or we will ask you to discontinue its use either permanently or the script is altered by yourself or third party to operate in a less resource-hungry manner. Failure to cease operator of the offending executable will be considered as server abuse. InnoHosting reserves the right to terminate any process which it deems to be using excessive resource usage."
Why not point that out to the customer where its visible instead of burying it in your TOS?
I honesty don't see why you are trying to defend an indefensible position. I think I have made it very clear regarding the point I was trying to make. Which is you are using the word "unlimited" as a marketing gimmick to attract more customers (this thread is perfect proof of that).
I don't have any problems with people challenging my statements (and when im wrong, I admit it). However, when someone try's to attack/belittle my statements by somehow trying to insinuate that I know nothing about web hosting, or trying to twist my statements around as if I am in the wrong for saying anything at all, then yes I do have a problem with that. Its not my fault that you decided to use a business model that is deceptive and misleading (you cant get mad at me for pointing that out to a consumer), if you have a problem with that, then change the way you advertise your services.
Keep in mind that when I first made my post to the OP, it was simply to point out that many web hosting companies (like your-self) do not actually offer what they claim to offer (at least not on their front page). Therefore a decision on who you should host with should not be based solely on what is being claimed to be offered in terms of diskspace/cpanel accounts..ect, but rather on the quality of the services being provided and whether or not that company can meet your current needs as a consumer. You can sit here and try to claim you guys really offer unlimited this and that, but a thorough read of your TOS clearly states otherwise. Im sure you probably don't want your potential customers to know that unless they absolutely have to (which is why you started this pointless debate in the first place). However it still does not take away from my point, that if you are going to advertise your business in a particular way, own up to it, dont attack the people who are trying to be helpful to others.
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| Posted by HostXNow_Chris, 07-30-2011, 09:26 AM | | It doesn't matter how many MySQL databases, cPanel accounts, emailing lists, etc the provider offers. It's all about CPU, memory, diskspace and bandwidth.
You should be able to use as many MySQL databases, cPanel accounts, emailing lists, etc as you like as long as you aren't using too many of the Shared resources (CPU/memory)
With Shared/Reseller hosting you aren't paying for dedicated CPU/memory. CPU/memory is shared.
If you're using too much CPU/memory you'll simply be asked to upgrade plan e.g., Bronze to Gold or service e.g., Reseller to VPS/Dedicated server.
Personally, I'd avoid providers that limit MySQL databases, cPanel accounts, emailing lists, etc as it is just unnecessary and gives the end user less control as well as complicates things even more. All that matters is CPU/memory, diskspace and bandwidth.
While you're not paying for dedicated resources like CPU/memory, you're paying for dedicated storage space and bandwidth. You should be able to use 100% of your storage space and bandwidth quota with providers unless you're reaching CPU/memory limits first or the provider is overselling (you didn't pay enough to get TRUE 100% resources) and so because you didn't pay enough and are using too much diskspace and bandwidth (resources that the provider doesn't want you to use) will probably just say your using too much CPU/memory, even when you aren't. It's just a way of them being able to get rid of customers that are using too much diskspace and bandwidth. Diskspace and bandwidth cost money too.
The more data there is the the longer it takes to backup the data. The data also needs to be copied to offsite backup servers, etc.
Bandwidth needs to be paid for too. Pay too cheaply and you'll get very poor upload/download speeds, etc due to the provider limiting bandwidth speeds.
At the end of the day all businesses need to make a profit for it to be worth it and stay in business so they can keep offering a good service. Pay cheap costs and you'll get a poor service (poor uptime/support/server performance, etc). Pay realistic costs and you'll get a good service (good uptime/support/server performance, etc).
Anyway, so don't worry too much about MySQL databases, cPanel accounts, emailing lists, etc. Just choose a good provider with a good reputation (check reviews, etc) and pay realistic costs for your hosting plan/service and you'll get what you pay for (best uptime possible, good support, fast servers, etc).
Last edited by HostXNow_Chris; 07-30-2011 at 09:30 AM.
Reason: added more information
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| Posted by Forward Web, 07-30-2011, 09:32 AM | | Thank you.. finally, another voice of reason. Well said
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| Posted by rv_irl, 07-30-2011, 01:29 PM | | Just to point out the contradiction:
And you say you're not doing the same thing?
Right. All business using a ToS should just throw them away because everyone using a ToS is deceitful?
It seems like we're just going round in circles here. You've contradicted yourself numerous times. I also don't understand why you have to resort to personal attacks instead of maturely conversing. You started this debate, you decided to attack our services like you have been doing for a while on WebHostingTalk. Jumping in threads, attacking other hosts to try and spam your signature in order to gain business for yourself. And when someone challenges you on your statements you seem to get pretty upset about it all. If you're going to attack others, be prepared to get an answer back. Like the many who have already poked quite a lot of holes in your 'logic'.
I was quite happy discussing the terminology used, but you have decided to stoop quite low in your desperate attempt to backtrack on your statements. You dodge the questions you find difficult and try to swing the conversation another way. Till now, you have failed to provide a single shred of truth and evidence to prove anything you have said.
You can sugar coat your comments as much as you want, use cliches and phrases, you can play around with words on your website and say X is Y, but it doesn't change anything.
You can hide behind your terms of being 'politically correct', 'honest', etc. etc. But it is what it is. You're not 'politically correct', you're not being 'honest' - all you have done is changed a few words round. Instead of attacking other businesses, you should really have a look closer to home.
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